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July 22, 2024

How a buyer first approach shortens sales cycle!

Natalie Marcotuillio
Head of Growth and Operations at Navattic
Discover how a buyer-first approach can shorten your sales cycle. Learn strategies for optimizing sales accelerating buyer engagement.

Priyanka: And I think we are finally live for the last four minutes, Natalie and I were talking to ourselves. 

Natalie: Hey, we got a redo round two. We'll be even better. 

Priyanka: Yeah, sure. So yeah. And four minutes later I just realized, Oh, this is not but that's, I think that was me who was like, Oh, I've done this couple of times.

I don't need to check it. But yeah, overconfidence always takes you down. But yeah, thanks everyone for joining and waiting for us. If you are on the live chat, please let us know if you can hear us loud and clear today we have a. Very special guest with us, Natalie. She's the head of growth at Novatic.

He's quite a celebrity. She's done millions of not millions, maybe, but yeah. So a few, some videos on YouTube, which really intrigued my interest in buyer centric approach and especially what Novatic also does as a product, which they essentially solve that problem is what. I think. And yeah, you should definitely follow Natalie for tips on biocentric approach for B2B how to manage a one one person growth team because that's some organization skills that we should all learn.

Yeah, I think we are now finally live and yeah, people can hear us. So welcome. Welcome Natalie. Yeah. Thanks 

Natalie: so much for having me. Like I said, second time's a charm, so it's even going to be better than last time, but yeah, super excited to talk about buyer first approach, as you mentioned, we do interactive demos, which I feel like it's just a piece of it, but really just all about like, how can we make B2B buying a little bit better?

Priyanka: Cool. Whatever research I'm, I did from my end and however, I've been involved little in the marketing side and in the B2B side by a centric approach. In this day and age is extremely important. Not because like it's a new term or it's cool to talk about, but I just think that if you really want to stand out in a crowded space and you really want to offer value to your customers, you need to put them first.

Then you put yourself, right? You it's, A lot about putting your customers and how they think, and then you build your systems and not, that, oh, this is the hypothesis we have set up and then we go on and make that experience, right? But I let Natalie now take over and define what is.

Buy a centric approach. 

Natalie: Yeah, I think you're spot on one. That's a great way to stand out in a crowded market, but it's really just all about, as it sounds like putting the needs or the wants of your buyer before necessarily your own sales process or the way that you've done it before. So I always say it's things like.

Public facing pricing, it might make your sales process a little bit harder, but ultimately it's going to make buyers trust you a lot more upfront and then have a more positive experience. Things like easy calendar scheduling, things like obviously showing your product more, being more transparent upfront, just all things that make B2B buying a little less.

Frictionful, that's a word. I think we've all gone through a buying sphere. It's just been painful and it just feels like we're playing a puzzle or a game just to see a piece of software. So flipping that on its head and just thinking, how can I make this as smooth, as simple as possible for my buyer, the way they want to buy versus the way I want to do business.

Priyanka: That's, that that's great insight. And. How do you think this has changed over the years, pre COVID, then how teams have piloted into biocentric messaging on their websites, on their socials, on their ad platforms? So on and so forth. Yeah. 

Natalie: So I think the reason that B2B isn't, or historically hasn't been as buyer centric was because in the past buyers didn't know how to buy software, right?

When software was first coming out, it was very complex. It wasn't PLG. Wasn't as much of a thing. Wasn't as easy to just adopt software. So you did need a sales rep to guide you through that process and coach you how to do it. I think it's. Especially then during COVID, when we all had to force to learn how to buy software online through zoom, we all became great detectives.

Like I know I got much better at online shopping in my personal life during COVID and we realized, okay, why can't I do this in B2B? Like we all got so good. And so used to Amazon and all this online shopping. And so we no longer needed all the coaching back in the old way. Sales first buying, let's call it.

So I think all buyers are just really, they're especially educated. I think everyone's bought software at this point. There's also much more software. So at some point everyone's been a buyer and they're realizing, I don't want to just do the way that it's always been done or that having my salesperson walk me through, like I know how to buy software.

Let me do the research and I'll get all the information I need upfront. And they only really want to talk to sales until it's those like really nuances that they can't get from doing their own research. 

Priyanka: Yeah, I think a lot of people are, I don't know if it's like exhaustion of talking on meetings, but they think that they just don't want to talk, but that doesn't mean that they aren't interested in your product or they aren't in the market for it.

a product, right? That's a misconception that a lot of companies today have that if they don't go through that sales process of sales, then pushing it to aid and all of that they'll not solve the customer's problem. So that's another observation from 

Natalie: my side. Yeah. I always joke.

I think we just don't trust our buyers. It's we don't trust that they know what they want or how to buy. But at this point, like I said, most people have probably bought, I probably bought like 30 at least, probably way more pieces of software in my life. So I think we need to give a little more faith to our buyers that they can do some research upfront, and then by the time they get to that sales call, it means that they actually know what they're signing up for.

Like I know I've also jumped on sales calls before where I thought a product did one thing and then I got to the demo and I was like, this is not what I thought, not what I needed. And it was just kinda a waste of both of our times. 

Priyanka: Yeah. Totally. Totally. I think. You save a lot of time, you you trust your buyer and you also gain trust from them while you make that sort of a system in place.

Next up, like from a marketer's perspective how can, how marketers can shift their customer journey to be buyer centric, right? 

Natalie: So I think the biggest thing anyone could do is go through your buying process, maybe interview customers and first ask them, what were great points and what were friction points?

Because I do think it varies a little bit between company to company and industries. But I will say is we've, at least doing our own research, putting out that report with Chili Piper, as you mentioned, what we've heard time and time again are three main themes. So one, not surprisingly, is pricing.

I think anyone who's bought software has realized how frustrating it is when you're like, is this piece of software 5 or 5 million? I have no idea. So even, I always say, even if you can't maybe put it on your website, just think about bringing pricing up earlier in your sales cycle. Maybe you send it before the first demo.

Maybe you send it after it doesn't have to be as drastic as put on your website, but just think, how can I bring this up a little bit? Two is just easy calendar scheduling. So making it super simple to actually get a demo. From our report with Chile Piper, we basically requested demos with the top 100 SaaS companies, and 35 percent never responded to us, which feels pretty insane to think that these are people actively requesting to book a demo, and we just got no, not even disqualified, just no response from 35%.

And then the third thing, again, not surprisingly, just showing your product. And again, this doesn't have to be as extreme as interactive demos on the website, but just trying to make it a little more upfront on your website, that showing the actual product experience, the UI, not just invented screenshots, or we've all seen those like design elements, really making sure that people get an idea of what your product does before they jump on that first call again.

So they know what they're signing up for and understand. Especially if they're valuing the market. If you can show a little more of UI and UX, they can understand how you differ. 

Priyanka: That's right. Yeah. So in that when you talk about interactive demos people directly think that you need to have a PLG motion Okay, I'll say it's product led growth motion in place because I said this because I think a lot of people will not get PLG, but yeah, so yeah, so they need, they think that they need to have a product led motion in place to have Something like that, right?

Or maybe not as extreme as an interactive demo. But they think that a sales led approach is the way to go. And if we want to pivot to something, what you explained in terms of a biocentric approach, then we'll have to go and make sure we Totally PLG and there is no middle ground. What are your thoughts on pivoting towards PLG or keeping a mix of both or even if you're like just sales led, how do you make a buyer centric approach there?

Natalie: Yeah, it's funny. We get that sometimes. And when we've looked at our customer base, it's actually about 50 percent sales led, 50 percent PLG, so you don't need to do be fully PLG and. For any of those who aren't familiar, just basically if you have some sort of free trial offering or if you lead with your product versus leading with a sales call, but You don't need to have that to necessarily show your product.

And if anything, we actually hear a lot of sales companies come to us and say, Hey, we ultimately want to go PLG or we understand the benefits of PLG, but my product is too complex. Like I'm worried that there won't be high activation and success rates. If I just give them free reign, maybe two, I don't have the engineering bandwidth because I've worked at PLG companies before and.

It does take up, it's very hard to take precious engineering time for making the product better to take towards your free trial experience or three, they just, don't maybe have the time, like they want to get something up fast and they want to just have the marketing department be the one working on it, or they don't need to want to have to involve every other department.

So they almost use interactive demos as their first step into PLG because it's a way to show the product, but it doesn't have to require any engineering resources a lot faster, and also it's all. Fully set up so you're not relying on the end user to have to do any set up to see value. Yeah, 

Priyanka: That's right.

But when you say about set up, right? I understand where the interactive demo part comes in. Without that like without an interactive demo in place or a PLG in place, just from a marketer's point of view, how do you make your website even biocentric, right? What sort of messaging?

I know I'm going a bit off topic, but yeah, it's just from my curiosity that how do you make your website biocentric? You know that, you're targeting the pain point of your user, of your customer. Yeah, your thoughts on it. 

Natalie: So I think what I'm going to say is going to go a little bit against what a lot of people are arguing right now.

But I think we've gone too value focused. I think sometimes we're so focused on oh, I need to demonstrate ROI, or I need to show that I'll 5x your pipeline, or I need to show this, that at some point, if every website promises that they're going to 5x my pipeline, Then it's almost useless. I think just being a little more specific around exactly what your product does and to clarify, I'm not arguing, let's just feature dump and not explain any value, I think there's a happy medium, but I think for a while we were so against feature copy and too much feature copy that we swung in the opposite direction and said, we only need to be value focused.

And then it made a lot of websites lose their meaning. So I think we're finding that happy medium. But I'd say, as much as you can, do user interviews, ask your customers, use products like Wynter that can help you, do those user testings. And figure out, do people understand what my product does?

I think when you're creating your website and when you're in your marketing copy every day, it seems obvious, but I know I've done those testings before and be like, Oh, I thought that was so obvious and still had people say, no, I don't understand what you do or I don't understand this. So it really helps to get that third party feedback and then adjust your messaging to really explain just what do you do?

Priyanka: Yeah. I think that's a great. I'm going to cut this and put this as a post because yeah it's different to what your people say their value focus and all of that, but we really need to look at the other side of things. Yeah that's there. And yeah, going on to this next question where.

I want to know that how do you figure out and position yourself on what stage of the buying cycle a prospect is in, right? Like intent wise, in a funnel intent wise what can you do in terms of buyer behavior and influence them into go going into the next funnel? Yeah. If you can talk 

Natalie: about that.

Yeah, I think the benefit of having more research out there are more intent points. For example, obviously, interactive demos I know well, but if you do have an interactive demo on your website, suddenly you can understand, okay, did someone make it through all of my interactive demo, or did they just get to the first part, or have they even seen it?

And that's a pretty big intent signal, if someone has... Walk through your entire product. So instead of reaching out or maybe retargeting to everyone on your website, you can send very specific messaging to someone and say, Hey, I saw you went through this specific feature of my product. Maybe most customers use this feature for X, Y, and Z problem.

Do you have that problem? Maybe here's some case studies. Like the more information you put out there, and you could also do this with G2, if you see they're looking at your G2 pages just. If you have maybe certain playbooks or templates on your website, the more data and research or any just specific product information you put out, the more intent signals you're getting back and then can highly personalize the message based on what that person has seen.

Priyanka: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. So in, in this I'd like to add like one one way how our sales team uses this sort of an intent data. So essentially we have LinkedIn integration. Like we had partners with LinkedIn. So whoever just looks at our LinkedIn ad, we also get an alert from that, so we have set up an alert on Slack through factors itself. So as in, when we get that alert, our sales team directly goes to the person. And we are obviously not obviously telling that oh, we saw you do that. Like we don't see individual people, but the accounts and then we record a loom video and then we send it to the prospect and it's not interactive at all while the approach is good, like the usage of getting an alert, this person is looking at your ad.

This is the engagement. You directly get it in your slack channel. But. Then next time what you're doing is a loom video and you never know if they're actually watching it because it's not interactive It's just a embedded video on it and I think in these approaches also if you have a stack of Interactive product features then it's much more easier for the prospect to actually look at that and then play around it on that email.

So yeah, I think that's another way that we should use interactive demos. 

Natalie: I love the concept though of alerting when someone likes your LinkedIn post, that's actually something I've been thinking about. So maybe we'll be inspired to check out factors after this, but we're playing around a lot with the LinkedIn thought leadership ads.

And one thing I've been thinking is, that's pretty good intent. Like we sometimes have customers or prospect will comment on the ads and say, Hey check this out, head of marketing. So why make sure we're capturing that new type of intent? I think there's a lot of problems out there that help you on your website intent email intent But linkedin intent is a new one just a side tangent, but something i'm thinking about right now 

Priyanka: Yeah, no yeah because we went to that tangent i'll just clear out that today we have integration with The ad side of things, like all things paid, you can track inside factors, you can get alerted to yourself as many channels you want to, and all of that we'll set it up for you guys.

And once you have that, and then the we've seen like people get deals out of it and close customers, because again, this is the intent you really need to capture at that moment. Otherwise you miss out on that customer. And it's really hard to even get. intent based customers in these times, right?

So it's even more important to catch that lead who is even remotely interested in you. Yeah, that's the, yeah, I think we went a little far, but coming back to the point You as a marketer, right? I understand you're a one person growth team. You do a lot of things at Nevada Tech. You also do thought leadership on LinkedIn.

You go on sites. You're on a live with me. What do you actually track as a marketer? What are the metrics? What are your KPIs to look at on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, on a quarterly basis? 

Natalie: Yeah, so we do traditional OKR system and every single quarter, one of my OKRs is pipeline and then opportunities.

So ultimately I am, that is like the end goal I'm responsible for, but I'd say that's tracked more in a monthly or weekly basis, but more monthly because obviously pipeline opportunities takes a little longer. So weekly I do track, leads and MQLs because obviously that's a.

a first factor as well as the conversion rate. So I am just checking, not only are we bringing in MQLs, but are they converting to ops? But the biggest thing I love to check every week is where are these opportunities or where are these MQLs coming from? So we do the very traditional, how do you hear about us right now?

I will say it works very well for us because we sell to marketers. So thank you for my marketers to give me attribution, but it's really helpful to, especially for things like those LinkedIn ads or for more experimental campaigns. I don't understand. Did people did this resonate with people? Is this where they're coming from?

So at a higher level, always track pipeline ops, weekly level MQLs and where they're coming from. 

Priyanka: Got it. Like lastly how do you think there's engagement, right? And there is social engagement. You're quite active on socials and I love your posts. I think they are huge value bombs.

What are your thoughts on thought leadership? And how did you get started on that? Yeah, I 

Natalie: always joke I don't like to post on my Instagram, so this did not necessarily come naturally as far as posting on my LinkedIn. But, I think what I realized, and just through experimenting, was I post a few posts about very specific interactive demo focused content.

And I'd almost actually just repurpose a blog post with the main points. And I remember posting my first one and being like, this isn't going to do well. It's way too enablement focused. And I'll say, you had a catchy header. You do make a little broader, but those are consistently some of my best posts.

And I think it's because it's very how to, and it's just something that no one else is really talking about. And so from there on out, I just tried to think, when I post, like what's a unique insight or just experience that I've had. So you also brought up like my post about being a one person growth team.

What are some unique things that I can post that almost no one else maybe can post about? And I think that does really well just because there is, I do see sometimes a lot of the same stuff on LinkedIn. So if you just have a unique angle and you might think, oh, this is too niche, but there will be an audience out there.

Like I just think about, bringing it back to Instagram. I think about the Instagram. People I follow and I love watching cooking videos even though I can't really cook like I'm following like New York City bakery Influencers, that's a very specific niche and they still have an audience and I think LinkedIn's gonna get there too So my biggest advice would just be don't be afraid to niche down and focus on what you know Cause I think it 

Priyanka: stands out.

That's true. I, yeah, I think that there's a lot of audience who wants niche content than there's an audience who wants to just consume generic content. And I don't know if you have also heard about this, but LinkedIn just tweaked that. I'll go some, a few weeks back, I think, where they are discouraging like click baity content and and there are like posts, which, are made to.

Play the algo, like game, the algo. . But that's not the case anymore right now. And a lot of people saw their impressions dip, engagement dip, who were traditionally like making posts, which are click ba and it worked for them. But to actually add value and have an audience which is not restricted to likes and engagement and impression, but they're invested in your content.

As much as they would be if you go on a stage and make a speech or make a presentation. So I think that's more important than to have like thousands of followers who just are there for, because the text is like trending. So yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah so lastly, right?

I don't know how it's possible, but how do you manage it all being a one person growth team? It's unimaginable for me, but I'd like to know how do you do that on a daily basis? 

Natalie: Appreciate that. I've always been, I've always been in smaller startup teams, so I'm lucky I'm just used to it.

At some point you just figure out, figure it out what you got. But I think the main things I do are one, I always just say it's prioritization. So it's about saying no more than saying yes. And I feel like we hear that advice all the time, but the framework that I use, similar to what I was just saying about LinkedIn is it valuable and is it unique?

So can no one else do this? Do we have the unique insights, unique customer examples, the unique perspective that no one else could write this blog post, could do this webinar, could put out this newsletter. And then is it actually valuable to our customers? Are we just saying something to say something, or are we saying something that they could really take home and action off of?

So that really helps when, someone, I think a lot of times in marketing, right? We get those spitball ideas. What if we started to talk? What if we do this? And then if you have that framework of okay, I could do a tick tock right now. I have no idea how to make it stand out and be unique.

I don't know how to provide any value. So it's pretty easy to put in the later category. So I think that helps as well as. I know the one post you're referring to, I mentioned a lot of my tips actually came, I was a chief of staff for a little, which is very, I highly recommend if you can. It was such a great learning experience because you really learn about all the different departments, what they care about, how to prioritize, but it got me really good at being more organized.

So a lot of it was like calendar blocking. Making sure I'm always prepared for the next day with meetings. And then just proper communication channels and eliminating unnecessary communication. So one of my biggest tips is any of my one on ones, we just have an ongoing notion doc. And so rather than those one off slacks where your CEO is like, Hey, what do you think about this?

Or, Hey, can you jump on a quick call? Unless it's very urgent. I encourage everything goes in the notion doc and we'll talk about it then. And then you can also see, hey, this is what's coming up for my meeting. Maybe I can prep, I can know, it also eliminates a little bit of anxiety oh my God, what is my CEO about 

Priyanka: Yeah that's great.

And is this something that you learned on job like over the years? Keeping it organized, being ready for the meet for all the meetings next day. You have blocked your calendar for deep work for preparing for meetings next day. Is it something that you've learned over the years or it was something that you were like born with and naturally?

Natalie: Definitely not born with naturally. I'm less organized in my personal life than in my work life, but I'd say it's a lot of, I'm sure part of it was tips too, that I'm not giving the proper credit for, but a lot of just learning and failing, like doing things the wrong way and thinking, how can I do this better?

So that, that helped a lot. And then, especially with my marketing career, I've just, I've had moments where I've done so too many things and have noticed like nothing's turning out well. That was a big learning as far as the valuable and unique, like when I was constantly working and nothing felt like everything felt so tedious and nothing felt like it was working.

I think that's, Actually, this was a tip from my old CEO, which I loved, he's talking about, it's you're basically just on a hamster wheel. Like you're doing a million things and running, but you're not giving yourself strategic, deep thinking time. So you're executing, but it's not always effective.

And that was super helpful. One, just have blessing from my CEO, take that, strategic thinking time, but to recognize Oh yeah I'm doing a lot, but it's not having a lot of outcomes. This is not the most effective way to spend my time. 

Priyanka: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think taking a step back and thinking about what you've done is something that tells you introspect a lot.

In terms of work, in terms of generally in life as well, that's a great tip. Yeah and yeah, whatever I have understood from your talk is that you love taking risks, right? Like you've worked for smaller startups. You've been in chief of staff roles. You've experimented so much in, in a field like marketing.

Where does that come from and why do you think it's really important for people starting their careers or even mid of their careers? Yeah, 

Natalie: I wish I could answer where it came from. I think I've always like traditional, sometimes linear learning of, let's do step one and step two, step three, step four, just never fit me as well.

So I think I've always just liked the concept of trying a lot of different things, experimenting, seeing what worked, what didn't, but eventually just realized every so years, just got a little like antsy to learn more. Maybe it's just curiosity of life. And so trying new things always excited me versus what stressed me out.

Cause I almost get more stressed if I just feel like I'm doing the same thing over and not trying new things. Maybe it's just a little bit of boredom, but just liking to try new things. And I think the nice part about starting at a startup was I learned very early on, just like you can learn new things and you can figure it out.

Now, when you're a small marketing team, there's not, I always say. From the hardest parts about being a solo marketer or a small team, it's, there's not always someone you can ask to figure something out. It's not like anyone's done it before. Not like you have a boss who necessarily knows marketing more than you.

So you really just have to learn to say, no, I don't know how to do that now, but I will learn. You get really good at Googling. And then suddenly new things just become less scary because you're like, Oh, I figured that out. I guess I can figure this new thing out. Yeah, 

Priyanka: I think that's great. And yeah, number one skill googling.

Number two skill is to be, I think, tenacious, right? There's one thing being curious and, that, okay, this is something that I want to try. But the other thing is being tenacious, where I will get this done by hook or crook and I am going to make this happen, doesn't matter if it's if it takes my time and sort of research or something, but I'll get it done.

And then own that project end to end. And I think that's, that, that is some, if you think it, if it was me two years back, I would have thought that, oh, this is really tough. That would have scared me. I'm like, oh, I can't do that. But at this stage, I think it does give you a lot of ownership.

One. Secondly, it also does help you feel good about yourself. In a good way it gives you a lot of confidence in general. What do you think that did that sort of a feel good factor come in while you were experimenting and taking risks and all of that? 

Natalie: Yeah, I think exactly what you said is just when you accomplish one hurdle, suddenly you have a little confidence, a little more to accomplish the next, like everything just becomes a little less scary.

And I also think breaking it up. So if you have a big project. Like just trying to accomplish one little thing at a time and then suddenly you look back and you're like, oh, I did all that. Just not letting it, I don't know I think sometimes I used to be a I still am a runner, but I used to run in college.

And I remember one great advice I got when you're like running up a hill is you just don't look up. You just look straight ahead. I think that sometimes like startup world, when you have a big task ahead of you, like you can't look at the end, you got to just focus on every little step. And then eventually you get there and you look down and you're like, Whoa, how did I do that?

But in the moment, you just can't think about the end. You got to focus on where you're at. 

Priyanka: That's true. That's true. One thing for the audience is that if you have any questions do let us know in the comments. We'll take it up. I'll just ask a few basic things to Natalie and I know this is going somewhere else, but I absolutely loved her thoughts on taking this And all of that.

I'll just end up with two more questions. And generally what do you like, really like about your career and the space that you were in marketing, then SAS and all of that. 

Natalie: So I started more like SEO, digital marketing. And I think the reason I realized I liked both of those.

and have just ultimately like marketing because it's just like a constantly evolving puzzle which is really fun. Like every new channel, every new tactic is just a new puzzle, new challenge and even SEO like there's not a definitive answer. I think that really bothers some people. I enjoy it because then you can try different things, you can experiment, different things can work and be okay.

I always found that my brain gravitated towards things like English where there are multiple options versus math where it's no, this is the one way to do it. So I've always really enjoyed that. Just trying new things, getting to try to figure out these new puzzles. I think in general, I like startups because a little bit more of that flexibility and you get to see it might be a lot of work when you accomplish something, as you said, you're like, Oh, I did that.

And I know the results. And the work I put in had real results. Whereas I think sometimes at bigger companies it's harder just to see the direct impact you're making on the business outcomes. 

Priyanka: Got it. Yeah okay, last question. What's the best advice or career advice that you have gotten from your seniors or peers or anybody in work or otherwise?

Natalie: A few ones, I think what I was saying before, but when my CEO sat me down and, really talked about, and I think this is a good advice for life too, as far as, if you're doing a million things, okay. And you feel overworked and not proud of anything, you're probably not doing anything great.

So being just okay and comfortable with taking time, like for us right now, it's July is tends not to be as heavy as a marketing month versus trying to over send myself thinking, okay. Let's take this month to really plan and think about, do we, is there any more strategic work that we haven't, we've been ignoring because it has been busy time, like just letting yourself be okay with that more strategic, holistic time.

Cause that's always when you get your best ideas when you're just constantly grinding and executing. I think it's very hard, at least I've seen for myself to have those more strategic, innovative thoughts because. I know also when you're doing so many things, the idea of taking on a big project or something new, you're just like, Oh, we can't do it for X, Y, and Z reasons.

And really it's just because you're burnt out, which I've been guilty of doing in the past. 

Priyanka: Yeah, I think so I had a friend in college. She was super creative and her brains were like walking 24 seven and we were in awe of her work ethics and the ideas that she came from. And one day my curious brain just.

And I just asked dude, how do you like get so many ideas and how are you so creative? All the time, whenever we stuck, you have a solution to it and it works 95 percent of the times. And she used to tell me that she used to think about ideas and creative things while in the shower and that's that really cracked us up then, but then she.

told us the logic that you know, I'm the calmest in at that time. And that's why I get like ideas there. And yeah, and whenever it's like, it's just there somewhere in my brain. It's just a folder in the brain. And whenever there's a problem, it just shoots it. Through my mouth. So that's how I get ideas and that time I thought that what is this?

I don't believe you But at this point I think that's when you're like calmer and when you're not thinking a lot of things about This that and all of that you get Most of your creative ideas, most of your strategic ideas. So that's a great advice, I think. Yeah I don't think we have any questions so we can wrap up the session.

Thanks for joining me, Natalie, and it was a great session. I absolutely love all your insights on a PLG biocentric approach. And for, and obviously taking risks part and the last session was my favorite, last 

Natalie: part of this. This was fun. I always love the like impromptu questions. I feel like that's what you showed us.

You have the most unexpected insights, but super happy to join. If anyone has more questions about, fire centric approach or being a team of one and what it's like to work at a startup I always say I'm on LinkedIn way too much. So feel free to connect with me or message me there. 

Priyanka: Sure. Cool.

I think we'll wrap up. Thank you all for joining and see you on the next LinkedIn life. Bye. Thanks for having me.

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